Conversation on Being & Doing with Jennifer Daubenmier, PhD

“I have learned to appreciate the nuance, to find the complexity and to appreciate that, when things don’t turn out as planned … that’s just what is … and that’s liberating in a way, to be free of that attachment.” — Jennifer Daubenmier

Jennifer Daubenmier, PhD is Assistant Professor at San Francisco State University (SFSU) in Holistic Health Studies. She received her doctorate in Social Psychology at UC Berkeley with a special interest in Buddhist Psychology.

She has conducted research on meditation and its health effects over the past 15 years, has published over 35 peer-reviewed research articles, and had her work featured in TIME magazine, an HBO documentary, and NBC Nightly News along with numerous national and international news outlets. She was Assistant Professor at University of California, San Francisco for 8 years in which she conducted NIH-funded research.

In 2015, she was awarded a U.S. Fulbright-Nehru Senior Research Scholar Award to travel to India for 9 months to study Tibetan Buddhist and medical perspectives on the mind-body relationship. She has been on the Buddhist path for over 20 years under the guidance of Buddhist teachers and scholars in the West, Nepal, and Tibet. She currently teaches meditation, Tibetan Buddhist mind-body healing practices, and Asian health perspectives at SFSU.

I hope you enjoy and learn by listening as much as I did.

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(Please let me know below if you would like me to share more conversations in being & doing with inspiring people I encounter – or any other feedback. Thank you.)

Books recommended:

• Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche
• The Myth of Freedom by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche
• The Places that scare you by Pema Chodron
• When things fall apart by Pema Chodron
• No Time to Lose (commentary on Shantideva) by Pema Chodron

Addendum: Jennifer was kind to follow up the day after with insights that were left out from our recorded conversation. With her permission I share them with you below:

“…in terms of maintaining continuity of presence of awareness of ‘flow’ during work and in relating to others … I think there can be lots of ways to address that question but a few non obvious things that can support practice came up for me after we spoke.  

Since we are a process – shaped by causes and conditions – we are affected by our bodies, environment and the larger context in which we practice. I have been studying Tibetan medicine so these other ideas that came up help to support mindfulness at work.

1. Staying attuned to the rhythms of the day – rising early, fresh, around sunrise (after a good night’s sleep, or sometimes before sunrise). Doing some physical movement, stretching, meditation, etc, showering, eating breakfast, and then starting work. Key work hours are around 10-2pm from an energetic perspective in traditional medicine (Ayurveda and Tibetan).

In the afternoon, after lunch, our minds are naturally less focused – it is harder to get work done and stay focused. So keep that in mind and don’t push it. Use the time to take a break, go for a bit of a walk, have a more casual meeting, or a brief rest if super tired. Or do lighter work that doesn’t require as much focus and concentration. Aim to do your most key important work earlier in the day when the sun is higher in the sky. Have dinner around 6pm or so, perhaps after some physical exercise, and 3 hours before bedtime. 

Working at night isn’t as great, your body is winding down, it is a time to be with family, friends, loved ones, or reading or other quieter activities. And then going to bed when that first wave of tiredness hits – around 9 or 10 but not pushing it past 11. Of course this is an ideal schedule but sometimes we get that ‘second wind’ late at night and it can be a creative time, working until midnight or so, but is not good health wise in the long run.

Your body needs that time to recuperate and detox from the day. Let go of the internet surfing and ambition if you can and get a good night sleep and it will be there in the morning for you.

So I start to realize that I can’t do it all in one day. I have to pace myself and living in harmony with nature’s rhythms will put a more steady wind in my sail over the long term which will support the steady application of attention and focus and slow down the ambition.   

My bodily energies are more balanced – and the bodily energies affect the mind. As they say, the mind rides on these energies.  I can rest more easily in the body which helps to stay present. Ayurveda teachers will say rising early is the one thing you can do to improve overall health and well-being, and that is key to supporting our meditation and work.

2. Diet is also super important as you mentioned regarding the caffeine. In Tibetan medicine/Ayurveda we look at imbalances and what types of foods you may need so not to be too wired or too lethargic or too aggressive. Learning  more about diet and my constitution has been super helpful to keep me steady and balanced throughout the day. We are all different so hard to give general guidelines here. But I can easily have a lot of ‘wind’ –that ambition and not wanting to quit feeling – so I need to eat foods that are nourishing, a bit grounding, warm, and not too heavy.  

3. In Buddhism we talk of the 3 jewels – teacher, teachings, and sangha/community of practitioners. We can’t do this alone with just a meditation practice ‘inside our own minds.’ Having a teacher and being around them as much as possible is great. They will start to rub off on you – their quality of being. The saying goes if you plant an ordinary tree in a sandalwood forest the tree’s wood will eventually start smelling like sandalwood. So that is more of an effortless process, it will happen naturally. Also, hanging around other people who embody wholesomeness. This will become your new default. Good programming and not malware : )

4. Other contextual factors related to practice that have big impacts – one thing that I enjoy doing if possible with work meetings and if people are amenable is to start the meeting with a short guided meditation that someone leads. Nice for everyone to come together and transition from what they were doing to being together in a shared space with shared intentions. It can create a new norm of speaking and I find people are generally more gentle and attentive – at least for the first part of the meeting! 

Of course maintaining your practice and lots of other things could likely be said but these came up in the meditation today. I thought I would share with you as I know this question is part of your path these days. In the end, doing takes place within our state of being, whether we recognize it or not. When we do recognize it, we are less caught up, and more free.